Spell levels

[Valiant]

Perhaps a good modification of the game engine would be to implement spell levels. This would also provide a means of making more difference between casting and non-casting classes.

This could look like (these are spell levels):

Level 0 All characters with MP may cast these spells. This might include light and vigor.
Level 1 Basic spells - casting classes will have this at level 1. Includes level 1 offensive spells.
Level 2 Some additional spells, including level 2 offensive spells and mend-wounds.
Level 3 Protection/Bless, detect-invis and the like.
Level 4 Includes bind, confuse, level 3 offensive spells and avalanche.
Level 5 Includes protection spells, like pro-fire etc.
Level 6 Level 4 offensive spells and invisibility.
Level 7 Stun and other more powerful spells.
Level 8 Level 5 offensive spells.
Level 9 All spells available.

For a mage, the chart could look like:
Level 1 - Level 1 spells
Level 2 - Level 2 spells
Level 4 - Level 3 spells
Level 6 - Level 4 spells
Level 9 - Level 5 spells
Level 12- Level 6 spells
Level 15 - Level 7 spells
Level 18 - Level 8 spells
Level 21 - Level 9 spells

For a paladin for example it could look like:
Level 1 - Level 0 spells
Level 3 - Level 1 spells
Level 6 - Level 2 spells
Level 10 - Level 3 spells
Level 14 - Level 4 spells
Level 18 - Level 5 spells
Level 22 - Level 6 spells
Level 25 - Level 7 spells
If level 25 is to be an absolute maximum, paladins would never reach the ability to cast beyond level 7 spells. This same list might apply to other warriors.

Of course, this does not mean the character doesn't have to find the spells first, it would merely set an extra criterium which must be met before the spell can be cast.

Such a system would prevent way too low level characters to be casting too big spells (for example, a level 10 mage immolating). Also, wizards would always have an additional advantage in ways of casting compared to other non-wizards of equal level. And the most powerful spells would be restricted to them alone, which is not unrealistic imho.

[Kampfer]

Well your idea isn't bad.. but (I know its only an exemple) but you said things like paladin lvl 22 invisible... well ok but you know you will never cast it.. plus its pretty hard to get it with a paladin I must agree.

personaly I don't fully agree with you because if you want to make a casting paladin you will be blocked by those rules... if you want to do a fighting based paladin fine.. you don't really care about spells.

Taking Kampfer as an exemple.. its a machine.. and I play it like a machine... casting.. attacking stuff... wither .. berserk.. well you already know what i'm doing with him... if you restrict spells (DK same as paladin almost the time) I will never be so powerful... which means my roleplay will be saboted and probably not only mine... see those dark-elves.. they get stuff (almost) by themselves... they band against very high stuff.. and they succed.. I admire that.. the sad part is sometimes they use high players (like me and Jagg) as tank to help them.

next thing is.. we shouldn't restrict spells by levels but staying at % realms.. and only restrict the area or it scroll to a certain character level (like for D-Inv).

I like your idea but in LOS its pretty tough to put that.. so we should only resolve the "too low level player which get high spell" by limiting the access to an area or the item itself.... "you may be level 13 get get that item" (plus the item can be a one time shot... for every spell... it will be more difficult to sell a spell now... like levitate or detect-magic)

oh well thats my points... but we can still agru that to reach something good and maybe get the DMs' attention

[Kaedan]

We have already developed and implemented a system which curbs casting based on class, %s, spell power and stats. Surely you must have all noticed?

There are plans to continue changing things and take steps to stop people of *too* low a level from casting certain spells, but these things take time as we have to ensure that things are still balanced and fair. This will probably not be done with a rigid 'by level' system though, but will continue to look at class, %s, spell power and stats.

It wont matter if a person can get a spell if they are unable to cast it...

--Kaedan

[jagg]

Interesting topic. I don't like your suggestion, Valiant, because it seems to penalise non-mages hard in an attempt to remedy a problem with mages. I mean, Jagg has a collection of interesting spells, some of which he will almost never be able to cast - not high enough %, too low int etc. But at least in theory he could, with practice and luck. His casting is already sharply restricted and to put spells actually beyond his reach would be a shame.

Damn, mages already have a grotesque amount of power! (*thinks* Bind compared to circle for example; getting a spell once whereas weapons and armour break; spells automatically do damage with no chance of missing - to name three off the top of my head ) Giving them exclusive access to the more powerful spells will only make things worse, I think. But perhaps level locking areas can keep a lid on the worst excesses of low level characters getting powerful spells. I mean, they are surely not fighting the fight themselves, right? They must be getting serious help from higher level characters. (If they can defeat the guardians, they deserve the spell!)

[Ghandi]

Ghandi has a lot of spells just for the having. To find all the spells available is some of Ghandi's goals. To block that seems somehow hard.

[Keezheekoni]

Well I have played a mage pretty much the entire time on los. They can be overpowered, especially when they are small and have relatively big spells. Their spells never fail whereas weapons usually hit. As the levels even out however hitting classes usually get a lot better at hitting while still having the nice armour class. There are weapons out there that deal quite the damage currently, even a critcal weapon that has not been discovered if I remember correctly. The classes that probably have it best off are those who can hit and cast. Mages at high levels usually can only cast, fighters at high levels usually can only hit. A dark-knight, or bard, or something similar can hit almost as good as a fighter and cast almost as good as a mage when they reach a high level.

Level 10 mages with immolate doesn't seem right however. If high level people don't help them then I doubt they could get the spell anyways. So just keep that in mind if a diviner asks you (high level char) to help him get burstflame or any other high spell say no or a similar answer with the same outcome.

[Scorpion]

They can be overpowered, especially when they are small and have relatively big spells

*hum*

[Kampfer]

well.. if they are 20 mages lvl 10 to defeat a big opponent they deserve the spell.. cause its the same as us big player who needs to be at least two to kill something.. ok I don't like the idea of small character with power even to me but if they work for... why not

[erynn]

Well I have played a mage pretty much the entire time on los...... Mages at high levels usually can only cast, fighters at high levels usually can only hit. A dark-knight, or bard, or something similar can hit almost as good as a fighter and cast almost as good as a mage when they reach a high level.

Come on, you admit you've played only a mage and then claim things about bards and dark knights? Your brain was sleepy....

I've played all the classes (except barbarian) to about 10 and various beyond that. The classes that can both hit and cast (druid, bard, cleric) are potentially more adaptable but generally the weaker.
A bard casts every 4 seconds, she doesn't compare with a mage: if I want to be certain that she won't be hit, I have to bind/cast/bind. My mage can bind/cast/cast/cast/bind and be sure of not being hit. I also don't have the mp to kill anything near my level without hitting at the same time. (A bard at level 17 has less MP than a mage at level 14).
I don't "hit like a fighter" or anything near it. Maybe at low levels this was true, but let me tell you, the griffon was impossible for me to kill alone even at level 17. In a more normal fight I probably hit/miss 50/50. I don't think Jagg would be too impressed.
Measures taken to protect a creature from hitters or casters both disadvantage me: if the creature deflects (anti-hitter measures) I have problems; if it resists (anti-caster measures) I have even more problems.
I can't do cast/flee like a mage could since the 4 second wait means the creature will get 2 hits in on me before I am out of there (1 for a mage) and my HP is not so much bigger (same as an alchemist).
Yes I can wear armour, (like an alchemist, not like a cleric), but against high level creatures this makes little difference. I vig pretty well, but i can't be doing that in battle because if I'm not using my mp offensively I'll not be getting anywhere.

From low-mid-level bard is one of the most difficult classes Ito level, in my opinion. Druids can be worse because they have even less MP. Kylan probably has the most difficult character out there, since he's got no strength and can't hit and low piety so doesn't tick. Once you start talking about creatures above level 10-12, AC means less and less.

Of the classes that I've played, mages are the most consistently powerful. Assassins seem very potent, but there is more limitation. Mages are completely reliable, kill very fast and if you can hit the potion button quickly enough, you're not going to lose unless you get mobbed.
The disadvantage of mages (any caster) is that you do one fight then you have to tick for 5mins. Very tedious, a paladin (any hitter) can play in a way that he never needs to rest.

Okay, I'll stop listing points now. Mages are little powerhouses. Frail little powerhouses I admit, but actually if you just use potions to keep your HP on full there is nothing simpler. Don't make claims about what high level bards fight like unless you want a lecture You've not played one here! (on RoH they are absurdly powerful, I'll give you that). If I was playing for power, I'd play mage. But as we all know - there's more to life than numbers.

Level 10 mages with immolate doesn't seem right however. If high level people don't help them then I doubt they could get the spell anyways. So just keep that in mind if a diviner asks you (high level char) to help him get burstflame or any other high spell say no or a similar answer with the same outcome.

Agreed. Prewipe things were absurd - level 1 newbies were given dragonscale, blackstar stilletos and burstflame scrolls! People who get given so much don't end up being the ones who really enjoy and appreciate the game. All you need at level 1 is a simple spell or basic weapon, then it seems to work out best if people are encouraged to earn their own things. It may seem like kindness to help someone kill Holbyn's shade, but it's not. It's better if they have to find people their own level and cook up their own plans. Having a spell is not that exciting, trying to fetch a spell can keep a person interested for weeks, though.

Erynn

[Keezheekoni]

Ok maybe it isn't true for bards. The highest I have played one is to level 7 and he could do fights fairly well. I also played a dark-knight to level 13... and 11... and 11 again. I have seen Kampfer fight creatures near the same level and take them down in seconds. He does cast for almost as much as a mage and does hit almost as much as a fighter. Kampfer back me up on this.

Measures taken to protect a creature from hitters or casters both disadvantage me: if the creature deflects (anti-hitter measures) I have problems; if it resists (anti-caster measures)

The thing about this is that if the creature resists magic then it is impossible for a mage to kill and same for a fighter with the opposite. It is also nearly impossible to fight 2 creatures at once from the lack of AC.

I've played all the classes (except barbarian) to about 10 and various beyond that. The classes that can both hit and cast (druid, bard, cleric) are potentially more adaptable but generally the weaker.

This was the point I was trying to make. Mages and fighters are the extreme of both cases. Characters at level 10 still seem to miss very often and fail spells still. Naomi at level 10 could hardly land a hit, but at level 14 it seems that she hit every time. Druids are very complex characters to play. In fact I can't think of a way not centered around a certain spell.

If you want simplistic then go with a mage or a barbarian/fighter, if you want something that is "potentially more adaptable" then choose a mixed class. *sigh* I don't want the easy way out, I should start a new main char of a mixed class.

[Kampfer]

...true (almost) (Kampfer can take Faldomet pretty fast if don't miss a hit... hitting around for 18-30 and cast for 48-55 (something like that))

[Ghandi]

Numbers doesn't always say the right thing. Ghandi has 100% blunt and sometimes he just misses and fumbles against <10 creatures. Resist-measures can be dealt with i think. I can remenber i first hit against one slimy thing for the first time and i defeated it, though i would never ever do it again alone. What i really don't like are creatures who just can't be hit by physical power. When i ran into those i just have to flee, but since i won't do that there's no other option then to granite, even if their lvl says i could handle them.

[Illyatra]

Kampfer said[quote]the sad part is sometimes they use high players (like me and Jagg) as tank to help them.

well as a dark elf char. I hace to say I have not used high lvl charachters to help me gain anything but exp. the few spells i do have i have found out on my own how to get and had relativly similar lvl charachters help me get them.

[Keezheekoni]

You know... I didn't really mean to get involved in this what class is better conversation. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. In fact I believe they are fairly well balanced. It should not be about efficiency at killing, it is supposed to be about enjoying your roleplay. Get a good character that you enjoy roleplaying and let the rest happen.
-Keez

[jagg]

they use high players (like me and Jagg) as tank to help them.

*chuckles* Hey! My ears are burning! I don't think I've helped too many apprentices with high level spells. I do have a deal lined up with Broken - if he can get me a bit of dragonscale and I'll help getting a nice spell. 'Someone' had a quiet word about setting the price for this trade, and I think most characters are happy to not give things away. It'll take a good proportion of his family teamed to get me what I want, so IMHO they're earning it. Mind you, why they don't just team the guardian, I don't know. I think they think Jagg's tougher than he actually is