"stopping inconsiderate play" (retrieved)

[Ruan]

Ruan
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 27
Location: UK
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 4:17 pm

Post subject: Suggestions request: stopping inconsiderate play

What do players suggest is done to stop higher level players wiping out lower level areas? It happens only with certain inconsiderate players but it has a big impact on the game for all the lower levels who are on at the time. Experience reduction makes the higher levels complain that they are not getting much for their kills, but it doesn't apparantly stop them doing it. What is the player point of view here? What would stop you from wiping out low areas for little reward and pursuade you to target things of a more appropriate level? We don't really want to make the penalties more severe and we prefer not to resort to the artificiality of level-locking areas, where possible.


Keezheekoni
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 78
It seems that they attack certain lower levels for the treasure they drop. Make larger levels drop better things? Or make it so that the lower levels don't drop these things? If you are referring to just cleaning out whole areas, like the gnolls, perhaps put a high level restriction?
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Kampfer
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Dark Crypts
restraining areas is not the solution. the point of view from a player like me is:

1- certain drops like the famous "ask key".
2- lack of medium stuff. (mayor/faldomet/floor/nospe/ordaran/etc...) 30-45min and they are all gone by myself.. so if we are 3-4 high level online we have nothing to kill.
3- aura system.. which mess up too fast on certain npc.. so we have to fix it with low level area which move aura much faster.. exemple: Thieves, vicars, acolytes.
4- sometimes RP push us to wipe low level area.. it happen rarely but it could be a reason.
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Qoith
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Lost under a pile of half completed LOS maps
I suspect everyone is guilty of this to a certain degree - sometimes for the drops; sometimes you just want to play safe; sometimes you just want max. exp in the shortest time-frame and killing every perm in sight is the easiest way to do this.

One way to stop it to a degree would be to give people a reason to travel from one side of the lands to the other - rather than sticking to the perms in the towns. For me, maybe because I still havent explored fully, a choice between a trip to the castle or the theatre makes more sense in terms of gold and exp compared to a trip deep into the forest - perms in there that I can kill single-handed as few and far between - and the drops arent as profitable. I certainly would travel into the forest more if I knew a perm could drop a good weapon/armor/ring/gold. Giving people a reason to travel more between worthy perms might help the situation.



Ghandi
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Lionhearts Keep
I agree on all points that Kampfer made.

Some points what i will add to it:

in case of paladins, their mission is to kill evil. So encountering little evil creatures and leaving them alive doesn't make a paladin feel happy.

Sometimes its the thrill for the character...wiping out an entire area singlehanded can boost a player's ego.

But more diversity for the high lvl players would be nice. Of course a paladin could stick all day at the goblins (low lvl as well), but that would be boring. Killing equal lvl creatures is far too dangerous (maybe with all my potions i can kill one).

So my suggestion is either create more medium lvl creatures or make stuff available for players so they are able to kill higher creatures a little more.
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jagg
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 90
Location: The Fens
It may be the case that the best solution will be to have started this topic, so anyone who has been playing in this manner might realise that it is annoying behaviour.

But, some suggestions:

Instead of a steady decrease in exp for low level things, two possibilities:
1) Exp cut off - so if they are say ten or twelve levels below you, you get zero exp, rather than a small amount
Or even...
2) Exp penalty - negative exp for very weak targets

Level lock specific rooms rather than whole areas. Taking Kampfer's example of the ash wood key, lock the room it leads to. You could get around this, it's true, but it might discourage going there.

Increase drop frequency of good stuff from harder targets. So if a higher level character is seeking a granite the 'go to' place would be the harder yet manageable battle with a better chance of success, rather than automatically heading for the granite source available to lower levels.

Perhaps putting in a few more pawn shops or equivalent further from the towns might be a good idea. At the moment when you've loaded up with booty, it's back to town to get rid of it every time. Having somewhere else to sell stuff might encourage higher level characters to go and stay further afield.

Some kind of (automatic) criticism from guild masters based on an exp per kill ratio. Could take a moving average over last 20 kills say? If your exp/kill drops to a low level, the blade master might start broadcasting messages about being a fighter being a coward or something.
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Ghandi
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 262
Location: Lionhearts Keep
Locking, may be the best option, looking at it in a rp-ish way. Because a paladin is there to kill all evil no matter what lvl they are and giving it negative xp because he does his job would seems rather stupid.

Besides, those areas are good to train magic skills. In other fights i have to use my magic for healing.
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jagg
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 90
Location: The Fens
Look at it this way though - if a powerful paladin is wasting his god-given strength on small fry when more powerful evil goes unchecked in the lands, perhaps his god might be displeased with his actions? The lesser ones could be dealt with after the strong (which in game terms will never happen as things respawn). Or perhaps they should be left as a challenge to the paladin's younger brethren to hone their skills on.

Try the example of a fighter - if he is fighting mediocre opponents that he can beat easily, he might become lax because they are too easy to kill (i.e. lose experience or skill). He should be challenging strong opponents, fighting to the limit of his abilities in order to develop and improve them.

Actually this was really in reply to the question of 'how can you justify experience loss?'. But experience loss or some other mechanism wouldn't be required if people look at the outcome we want to achieve, that of plenty of targets for characters of all levels, then use a creative rp reason to justify NOT fighting the easy things. It's more natural and believable (if I can use such terms in connection with a fantasy game icon_smile.gif) than being mystically unable to use a path you always used to.
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Kampfer
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Dark Crypts
I disapprove everything you pointed at Jagg.. sorry nothing personal but its all bad icon_smile.gif

-Nothing should make lose exp to anyone.. if killing low level will result in exp loss its against the play itself (anti-gaming).

-oh.. maybe one thing not that stupid.. I don't fully agree but I don't really care either.. The trill of killing low level for trill.. ego.. RP.. or whatever means "we don't care about exp" icon_smile.gif

[Short Explannations]

Kampfer is a DK and put chaos where he goes.. he push people to act against their will.. to commit evil acts in the name of something not always known icon_twisted.gif and killing low level like acolyte or vicars or simply a housewife is to provoke paladins and other goods to try to execute me, taunting paladins far away from the realy danger is my way to RP.. making them pass of careless fighter of goodness.. while they are somewhere else the city is defenseless.

[End of the Short Explannations]

-Every class have their reasons to keep killing low levels so your exp loss would have to be worked and coded for each class separated and case by case cause a one-shot RP making you lose exp is REALLY BAD.

-Locking low level area, somes already know my thought on that, I totally disagree for many reasons
--if we lock every low level area we should play Final Fantasy then cause its linear and LOS will become like that.. I already hate being unable to enter the ahinma's village or the hippogriff nest or the chameleon or the animated statue (ohhh maybe first time you (new players) hear this? than patch your ears icon_twisted.gif ), I'm emerged in my RP far enough to not get what those things COULD drop for lower level player... still wonder why those things are restricted. Its a RP oriented MUD and we are playing like the rules. If we limit areas to who wants to RP.. again its anti-gaming.. so I will fight against the areas locking icon_sad.gif

We (RPlayers) have to help those who hardly make it through this RP thing to make them follow the rules like we do then everything will be in order.. no area lock.. no exp loss.. no bad award.. well a perfect world with Kampfer sat on the top icon_twisted.gif

[*adding*]

I understand the area locking from the point low player have to interact/RP between them to get help from others to kill something bigger.. I accept that.. but us big ones are just punished cause "maybe" we forgot about that place and you remember just too late and you really wanted to go there (like I did). same for low player and area lock lvl 16+.. let them go to the dragon.. even if they are 20 they won't kill him due to "she can kill them one blow per player" and "they won't even touch him".. so they will learn to don't go there before higher level icon_twisted.gif
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jagg
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 90
Location: The Fens
Kampfer wrote:
I disapprove everything you pointed at Jagg.. sorry nothing personal but its all bad icon_smile.gif

Laughed out loud when I read that! No offense taken. It's good to throw a few ideas out, get other peoples opinions on them.
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Kampfer
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Dark Crypts
ahahhahahah well.. your ideas makes me detail more mines.. not a bad thing either icon_smile.gif
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Keezheekoni
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 78
I have a few ideas that support Kampfer's and Jagg's positions. For characters such as Denlise there could be a trigger when a character greater than level 14 is attacking. If a level 12 or below is attacking Denlise might think she can handle the fight, so she would fight on her own. If a level 14 or above fights Denlise she might yell for help and two white knights could come to her aid. This would make it so that high levels could still kill these creatures, while at the same time it is still a challenge. This could work for other situations as well, but with monsters, such as chameleon's, there would be a little less reasoning behind it. Well maybe a chameleon coming to the aid of the other is not that unrealistic.

For some creatures that are solo minded there are other possibilities.
You attack Blah Creature
Blah Creature sees the fight ahead and calls to the Gods to give him strength for the ensuing battle.
Blah Creature grows in size, and the once pale empty eyes, turn red and demonic.
Now the creature would gain some hp, and hit a little harder. This would make it harder, so the booty from the kill should be a little more. You could gain a "divine wish" or something from the creature that you can use.

These are really long term changes I am pretty sure, but it would even out the field, and mix things up quite a bit. Areas that used to be closed to higher levels could be opened again, but the level of the person could determine the difficulty of the fight that is ahead.

As for a more short term solution I would say increase the traffic rate again. Killing weapons masters and heroes is pretty fun, but after the two are killed it is a long wait until another would show up to challenge. It does make sense that not just anyone is a hero, so having them show up is a rare event, but high level characters suffer from not enough around to kill. Specialty perms take quite the saving up (potions, keys?, stuff in general), so high level characters are limited to the limited amount of perms, or the slow arriving traffic.

Enough for now, --Keez
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Kampfer
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Dark Crypts
Ruan.. maybe its time to have YOUR advice on what we talked at this time icon_smile.gif
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Ruan
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 27
Location: UK
Ok, thanks for all the ideas.

Some, such as more targets, more places to get certain items are in the works.

Others such as level-related logic are also in the works.

I like Jagg's idea on guildmasters keeping an eye on their trainees and messaging them if they are fighting weakly. We have some background code which might even make this quite feasible.

Ghandi: on killing small fry - see Jagg's response. Your strength is best used to take out the strongest evil you can manage, leaving weaker knights to deal with more minor problems.

Increasing the traffic rate globally is not something I would support - at times there are already absolute floods of creatures and some of you have already enough experience of being overwhelmed by traffic at places like the thieves guild, or the basilisk caves.

As I initially said, we prefer not to level lock areas because it is artificial - although certain special quests will be level locked to maintain the high degree of the challenge involved. Also, as Kampfer said, too much level locking makes the game too linear and restrictive.

Thank you all for your participation and thanks especially to those players who have adjusted their style to target more appropriate creatures, at least whilst lower level players are also online. I will continue to work on adding and extending areas (example of this is the extension of the hippogriff area from 1 perm creature to a small area with multiple perms and wanderers creating more of a challenge as well as multiple sources of the items of most interest to higher players).


Scorpion
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 192
Ruan wrote:

Ghandi: on killing small fry - see Jagg's response. Your strength is best used to take out the strongest evil you can manage, leaving weaker knights to deal with more minor problems.


*cough*. most goblins are lvl 6-8. Shouldn't we deal with them? I say we have to deal with them, cause the traffic rate can be so high there.

Ruan wrote:

I will continue to work on adding and extending areas (example of this is the extension of the hippogriff area from 1 perm creature to a small area with multiple perms and wanderers creating more of a challenge as well as multiple sources of the items of most interest to higher players).


Offcourse i like that idea. Could add an orc camp in the forest, instead of only the traffic. Elf camp (but that's in the work list.. tertenigal (something like that)). Mines filled with dwarven, and their treasures.. perhaps big evil creatures like Balrog (If that creatures fits in los).



Ruan
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
Posts: 27
Location: UK
Scorpion wrote:

*cough*. most goblins are lvl 6-8. Shouldn't we deal with them? I say we have to deal with them, cause the traffic rate can be so high there.

Sorry, I didn't realise I was unclear. Killing goblins, although individually they are lower level, clearly does not fall within this category. It does not have a negative effect on low-mid level players because a) goblin traffic is high and killing wanderers has no impact and b) the goblin camp is not safe for lower level players in any case. Apologies if you were confused.

Scorpion wrote:

Offcourse i like that idea. Could add an orc camp in the forest, instead of only the traffic. Elf camp (but that's in the work list.. tertenigal (something like that)). Mines filled with dwarven, and their treasures.. perhaps big evil creatures like Balrog (If that creatures fits in los).

We are not short of ideas for areas to add. Only short of time.

[Scorpion]

I know a way to keep higher pallys out of the low lvl evil (bandits, gnolls, thieves). Spiders, the big ones, and wolves should be good targets for high lvl pallys, but the annoying thing is the poison/disease.

I think disease/poison duration should be changed as you guys done with bind/conf from creatures. A low lvl wolf can easily disease me, making me suffer for 20 mins. I know more cure-disease items are put in the game, but do you see any druid? Ok, for not having a druid around isn't your problem. But i have enough chars i think. *winks to other players*

[Ghandi]

But a single pally can wipe out the whole spider forest in one run. So what if more pallys are online. They havent fixewd the silver weapons yet. But even then you only have a couple a areas where they can go.

[Melodor]

They havent fixewd the silver weapons yet. But even then you only have a couple a areas where they can go.

Could you explain what you mean by this comment?

[Ghandi]

With last update, silver weapons were reduced to doing normal damage. I was told that with next update they would fix something to it. I guess you also have noticed that nearly no one is venturing through those lairs anymore using weapons. Without that area, you dont have much concentrated evil spots where you can walk alone.

[Melodor]

Silver weapons do indeed do normal damage now. Initially the reduction was too severe since silver weapons had been designed to be weak on account of the silver vs lycanthrope bonus. This was soon fixed and you were notified. Old silver and runic weapons are not as good as the new ones so you may wish to renew them.

The reasoning for the current situation is as follows: silver is the only thing that can hurt wolves, there was no real reason why a silver blade should hurt a werewolf more than a normal blade should hurt a normal wolf, and no real reason why silver weapons should be pathetic on a normal wolf just to balance the bonus given on werewolves.

Further, werewolf creatures are actually of a similar difficulty level to other creatures of the same level. A level 6 werewolf is about as strong as a level 6 town guard (but is worth more experience). The rewards for that area are higher (mostly in terms of treasure) because of the aggressive nature of the creatures and the risk of disease. Part of the thinking is that we like the werewolf area to be difficult and a bit scary, it helps a little towards the potential to allowing players to level beyond 18.

You should like the next little database update when it finally comes through. I have been hearing lots of interesting things about it.

[Scorpion]

You should like the next little database update when it finally comes through. I have been hearing lots of interesting things about it.

Well, i hope it's soon. Allmost waiting for 2 months now for a new update. *bounce*

[Ghandi]

Great, i can throw away all my stocked silver weapons

If i recall my memory well, i believe that werewolves really can't stand silver. Even a single touch with it could burn through the skin, so that's why i found it a bit strange the damage was reduced.