What is this???

[Ghandi]

Now there's a new update, again a certain class has to suffer from it. This time the assassins are hurt extremely, pushed only to kill creatures stronger then they are. But since they dont miss less, fails to sneak less or hit better, this will cost more healing stuff than lower kills and therefore this task is extremely hard.

Seems that every a char a of meglaz or mine is gaining xp fast (meglaz and finch), extreme measures are taken to prevent them from gaining more xp and having fun playing those chars. Now, i tried with finch to kill some strong chars. I fought Holbyn and before i had to tick, i already run out of all my healing stuff and after i tick i went back i found the shop closed since it was night..

So my top 3 chars, paladin, assassin and mage are cut off from any advantages. Paladins heal for nothing, they get hit more than they can heal for, assassins are like sh*t now and mages are spending more time in healing centres than outside killing creatures.

Other classes like dark-knights and fighters are unchanged, keeping still more powerfull than the others and i was wondering "why not change those" Kampfer and Jagg are one of the strongest chars in the lands and they are left alone while weaker classes are made more weaker. I mean, fighter should be a less caster than paladins, but still they cast better then paladins and they can still flee. I mean, Ghandi tried to cast pro-fire once. After the 24th attempt, he finally succeeded in casting it.

So why still weakening the classes we play, where you can fix the paladins. A mend of 25 can never heal up hits of 22 that are made every 3 sec.

Hope you'll see our point.

Ghandi and Meglaz
(the ones who's chars are weakened with every update)

[Melodor]

Point 1) the game is provided free to you, at the cost of our spare time. It makes no sense to claim that we do anything to "get at" players when the very existence of the game refutes that.

Point 2) Finch and Astoria are not the highest level assassins. However, the trend of newer assassins to get absurd amounts of experience by targetting creatures that pose no risk to them was noted. It's not characters "strength" but the exploitative style their players choose to demonstrate that pushes us to close up holes to make sure that rewards are earned.

Point 3) There is nothing wrong with paladins. You lose out a lot by not making the most of the paladin ethos.

Point 4) A huge amount of effort goes into it making the game both challenging and fair. We are not in favour of players being able to gain large amounts of experience with no cost or risk. The newer assassins on the scene were demonstrating that by killing creatures far lower than them in one backstab they were able to gather huge amounts of exp per hour with far too little risk. This was simply not fair and to stop the exploitative style we have had to remove the option. I again emphasise, we have nothing against people succeeding though fair play, but unfair play is not something we want to allow.

Point 5) You have your facts wrong about the point at which you stop getting full experience. It is not very harsh and some players may hardly notice because they did not target creatures that would not be able to fight back.

[Ghandi]

Hmm, ok, makes some issues more clear to me, but not all.

Could you explain what you mean with point 3. I have really no idea what you mean there And about point 5: i probably havent completely found out this new system, but from what point do you still get normal xp? I thought that by reducing the xp of lower lvls to +/- 10 xp, would increase the amount of xp of targets that have a higher lvl than you. I noticed that lvl 11 and 12 creatures (Finch lvl 14) would still not give full xp.

But...i agree on the point that assassins gained an absurb amount of xp in a very short time and i can understand the steps you had to made to prevent an unstable balance. But, and i hope you understand this, the change from getting a lot of xp to gaining nearly nothing is huge and if you are used gaining a lot, you are a bit soar (hope i spell that right ) about it.

Now i have a little question about the targets the assassins now should hunt. These are supposed to of the same lvl or higher of the assassin, but with other strong chars around like Kampfer and Jagg, these high lvl creatures are all dead pretty soon and not much would be left. Will you increase the amount of high lvl creatures?

Sorry for my first post. But i hope you can understand why i wrote it.

[Kampfer]

I will add..

the cause why Ghandi miss alo tof spell is his intelligence.. its not a unbalance class.. you have 9 int if I remember well.. Kampfer have 18.

even Jagg fail his p-f/p-e and some other crap.. but his helmet maybe help.. we never know and probably never know too what other things a RP item bring to a player.

But Ghandi I know what you can feel.. Having Elnor leveling in the red tent and suddenly white knight came and teach to wounded how to fight properly make me piss AND chasing elves and see they hired hunters after a while of massacre make me piss even more.. every where ELnor tried to lvl they added something.. (evil dms)

but its probably not the decision of ONE DM.. so I guess if at elast 4 heads think its a good idea to lower something I will kneel and lick their ***** and said it taste like ice cream... you see the point?

[Ghandi]

And can someone tell me what a Barter Stone is? I saw it near my keep, but it's gone already. You couldn't look at it nor press it.

[Melodor]

It's not part of our policy to reveal stats, but since Ghandi is a) not a casting class b) of relatively low intelligence c) has barely practiced fire magic... and further, since protect-fire is a complex and advanced spell, yes he's likely to have problems casting it.

[jagg]

Hi Ghandi,
Just thought I'd give you my take on some of the points you raised. See, I think that there is a lot of "the grass is greener on the other side", when hopefully things have a certain balance, such that no one class is greatly favoured over another.

...and mages are spending more time in healing centres than outside killing creatures.

If Jagg blows all his magic in a fight, you're looking at a whole nine ticks to full recovery. Taking into account his dismal piety, that's quite a long time. Admitedly he can still fight while recovering mp, but at a REALLY slow rate outside a healing place. For another tough fight, he's almost certainly going to need that magic, and he wouldn't be gaining a great deal (of exp or gold) while fighting and ticking.

I mean, fighter should be a less caster than paladins, but still they cast better then paladins and they can still flee. I mean, Ghandi tried to cast pro-fire once. After the 24th attempt, he finally succeeded in casting it.

Without getting into the nuts and bolts of how much damage a particular spell does, maybe paladins are stronger casters than fighters. I've worked hard with Jagg to increase his spell skills in relevant realms, and I think that is the only place where the difference lies. Don't worry, Jagg fails his protection spells, oh I don't know...half the time even now. I know that's not 23 times out of 24, but I've strived for months to improve his casting. Is there anything you might be able to do to improve your success rate with pro-fire?

A mend of 25 can never heal up hits of 22 that are made every 3 sec.

I did do a comparison in Excel of how long a paladin who healed himself would last compared to a fighter, but let me outline it very roughly. Jagg has a dreadfully low piety, so fails healing spells more often than not, and has been known to mend for as little as 2 hp - so for the purposes of this comparison, let's ignore his healing ability. You on the other hand are able to heal about half the damage you take in the fight outlined. But Jagg doesn't have twice the hit points - he's going to limbo way before you are. Now I know this is a very artificial situation - the enemy may miss and hopefully Jagg has a better AC, also the magic that Jagg really would waste trying to heal himself is possibly better spent on binding or casting offensively - but for pure durability, healing like a maniac makes paladins come out well on top. From the little I've seen of clerics like Rygar fighting, that's their 'angle' on how to win fights, and I'm sure it is similar for paladins.

Regarding the strengths of each class, I think fighters do have some valuable abilities. The bit of spell casting they do have is a great benefit over what I imagine a barbarian is like in a fight (although they do more damage per blow than fighters, right? Never played one, so I'm on uncertain ground). But - this must be the same for any of the semi-spell using classes (i.e. not barbarians and wizards). I can think of a particularly effective bard/druid combination...

The circling skill makes it relatively easy to beat up lower level targets, certainly once you're high level - but I would imagine that the DMs have an eye on that also. Perhaps you could make a case for cutting fighter's exp for low level targets as well. I think though the emphasis of fighters is more defensive. They make a great second character in a group of two, as they can either circle or (just about) bind for long enough for a more offensively-orientated character to deal a lot of damage. Makes them very useful! On their own, I don't think they are so strong unless they are fighting something they can circle.

Go on, that'll do for now. I'd be interested to know what you think.

[Ghandi]

If Jagg blows all his magic in a fight, you're looking at a whole nine ticks to full recovery.

Ghandi will need at least 13 ticks to recover all his mp in that situation.

...but I've strived for months to improve his casting. Is there anything you might be able to do to improve your success rate with pro-fire?

I tried, but before i started to try i had 20% fire, now i've got 7% left.

You on the other hand are able to heal about half the damage you take in the fight outlined. But Jagg doesn't have twice the hit points - he's going to limbo way before you are.

Remember you can flee. I also have to choose whether i will bind/confuse or heal. Can't do both the same time. Also sticjy salves, golden potions are obtainable for me.

Now I know this is a very artificial situation - the enemy may miss and hopefully Jagg has a better AC.

Yep, you have a better AC. Ghandi only has -3. He do gets hit a lot.

My point is that paladins are unable to defeat enemies of their own lvl or higher ones on their own. We are stuck with lvl 16's (not hasted) or lower. Only in groups we could be strong, but two strong paladins online are rare events.

[jagg]

(All comments in boxes are quotes from Jagg - was struggling to nest all the levels of quotes properly!)

If Jagg blows all his magic in a fight, you're looking at a whole nine ticks to full recovery.

Ghandi will need at least 13 ticks to recover all his mp in that situation.

Might one suppose though that that your piety is higher than 5? Your rest time will be of the same order as Jagg's. It's really embarassing fighting with Keezheekoni, because he ticks so fast we always end up waiting for me. Hey, I don't mean to complain. As Jagg doesn't have piety, he has it in other stats, so it's a trade off.

...but I've strived for months to improve his casting. Is there anything you might be able to do to improve your success rate with pro-fire?

I tried, but before i started to try i had 20% fire, now i've got 7% left.

Well there you have my every sympathy. You've had a cruel run of luck of late.

You on the other hand are able to heal about half the damage you take in the fight outlined. But Jagg doesn't have twice the hit points - he's going to limbo way before you are.

Remember you can flee. I also have to choose whether i will bind/confuse or heal. Can't do both the same time. Also sticky salves, golden potions are unobtainable for me.

Not being able to flee is a big handicap, I agree. But I can't agree that healing items are unobtainable. Jagg will always trade you a golden or two for a decent price. Hell, if you want sticky salves, I'll start sweeping them up. They're of little use to Jagg because of their failure rate. Say 20 for a scarlet? We're wheeling, we're dealing - make me an offer.
Regarding binding or healing, unless you're fighting something really hard, your bind must last long enough to fit a mend in between? I bind things until they get free and take a swipe at me, then bind them again. So alright, they may have hit you once, but follow that up with a paladin-powered mend and you should be in great shape to last for as long as it takes until your magic runs out.

My point is that paladins are unable to defeat enemies of their own lvl or higher ones on their own. We are stuck with lvl 16's (not hasted) or lower. Only in groups we could be strong, but two strong paladins online are rare events.

You know, I should be strutting around with my chest puffed out. Do you think that Jagg is such a stone killer that he stalks the Lands, slaying higher-level enemies on a whim? His situation is actually very similar to your target range - two levels below so he can circle them is good. One level below he either needs a really good run of luck with the circling or has to use bind. (I can't offhand think of a good same level comparison, will think about that). But he's far from invincible.
You could consider teaming with someone other than paladins. Jagg is around (ahem) frequently... Don't worry, he won't drag you off to fight things you aren't comfortable with - he'll team up any time you like.

[Kampfer]

*cough*

[jagg]

*cough*

Well, preferably when Kampfer isn't around, and certainly not when Kampfer is paying for Jagg's services. Ah, the joys of neutrality.