LoS BB

I might just be me, but i'm thinking mages totally lost their power.
Making my spells hurting about 8 damage less (lvl 4)+ bind holding shorter. Allthough i can understand bind against higher lvl creature should last shorter.. but i don't understand why it lasts shorter against lower lvls ?!?

Offcourse those criticals are nice, perhaps more realistic, but i really wonder.....

Was my orc too strong for LoS?

Though these changes were at first very anger inducive, I think I am getting used to them. It does sort of even out the crazy power mages could have before. It makes life more exciting actually taking hits, though when I die I am sure I will change my mind *grin*. It definitely does make mages rely less on holding spells and more on protection spells, and perhaps even armour *looks sadly at his cloth pants, silk shirt and top hat*. So I say the changes are good overall --Keez

If my earthquake wouldn't fail.... sadly, it still does
perhaps then...

You talk about mages?? What about hitters. Now they those other crits, which i usually have as my last blow, but they wont reach above 65 for me. The old crits could reach 156. I mean, that's quite a difference. Not one extra hit could supplement that amount, so it's are not only mages that lost some power, even the weak paladins.

I've not tried binding something seriously yet, so I don't know how much the effectiveness has been reduced. I would say though, as an ideal situation characters of similar level should be of similar power. I don't think that used to be the case particularly with serious casters.

Now, it may well be that a mage is better in some situations than a fighter, and vice versa, but broadly speaking they should be comparable. This reflects the amount of time and effort spent working a character up to high level. I've grumbled before about things like bind never failing (as compared to circling), spells never missing (compared to weapons) and spells never breaking (unlike weapons). Come on mages, you still have a lot of advantages! Perhaps these changes balance things up a bit.

My only concern about the current changes is if it makes certain creatures unassailable. If weakening bind means some creatures require larger groups (which infrequently assemble) or extensive potion reserves (that take time to collect), it will only mean tougher things get fought less and make the game less fun. More drudgery for the same reward, in terms of nice rewards for fighting hard things. That's a balance the for DMs to worry about though

Jagg

My opinion on the matter of changes is actually quite positive.

Critical hits are weaker, true. But have you noticed the frequency at which they happen ? Lots of them, and let's not forget the 'no more fumbling' feature. Adding critical spells, I believe these changes have brought a much better balance to player vs. npc combat, if not player vs. player.

The reduction of binding spells means that mages are less effective alone now, but more group people, relying on tanks to take the beating for them. Less solitary systematic killing, but well worked out tactics... might work out far more enjoyable in the end

Keezheekoni wrote: It definitely does make mages rely less on holding spells and more on protection spells, and perhaps even armour

Speaking of protective spells... how about a spell that reduces physical damage, much like the pro-realm spells (but more costly of course, like 20mp or more) ? Might make things interesting, weighing the cost of the spell against the tactical advantages (will the mage have enough mp left to finish the foe ?)...

Firstly I'd just like to say thank you for the feedback on the changes, especially the ones which say you like them

Yes, the bind/conf/stun changes do mean that certain creatures are less 'accessible'. Before the change bashers and circlers had around a 0% chance of holding a larger target for even 1 round, yet casters could easily hold something immobile until they ran out of MP. This was a clear imbalance that had to be addressed.

Mages were also getting additional bonuses to hold durations simply for being a mage. This again was wrong and had to be addressed, the emphasis being shifted to the character's stats.

On the plus side for casters, not only are you now casting critical spells, but your holding spells are much less erratic when cast on less powerful targets.

As for failing earthquake spells, that's down to the fact you've only got 22int. To cast impressive magic one has to be clever.

Now on to critical hits..

Before the changes critical hits were vastly over-powered. They were so over-powered that some people were completing quests etc with little or no skill simply by fleeing in and out repeatedly till they got a critical hit.

You cannot deny that the damage done with critical hits before was excessive.

As such I made critical hits more interesting, adding in a mild stun effect, and making them more common. I also altered the criticals more by class and stats. It's entirely possible to have multiple 'crits' in just the one fight, and with the fact that they daze your targets these strikes bring an interesting element to fighting.

Finally I'll just say in response to Jagg's comment about making things unfightable, that's intentional.

As the world grows we need to be able to add things that are interesting, fun to fight and actually a challenge. As we expand the world there'll be plenty more fightable stuff suitable to your levels, and the hard stuff really being a challenge leaves you targets and a reason for levelling up. Under the old system, harder creatures were not enough of a challenge and left little reason for adding in high level areas and lifting the level cap as characters were already able to 'take out' creatures so much more 'powerful' than them.

I hope this clears up any misgivings,

--Kaedan

Kaedan wrote:Before the changes critical hits were vastly over-powered. They were so over-powered that some people were completing quests etc with little or no skill simply by fleeing in and out repeatedly till they got a critical hit.

This does not count for paladins. As I'm not able to flee, Ghandi relies a lot on criticals when fighting creatures of lvl 16 or 17. The damage was excessive, yes, but crits were rare. It's nice to have multiple crits in one fight, but i usually have them at the end, missing the whole stunning effect. I don't know if this is made intentionally to my class or just plain bad luck. I can still remember having 3 old crits in a row

Kaedan wrote:Finally I'll just say in response to Jagg's comment about making things unfightable, that's intentional.

You measure the length of holding spells against the lvl of creatures. As i noticed, you count a lvl 14 creatures like Manic as a strong creature. Bu since Ghandi is lvl 18, Manic could be seen as not that hard. But my bind spell really works shorter than usual. I couldn't even fight creatures of my own lvl, but now will have even more problems with lvl 17/16 creatures.

And Valiant, adding pro-physical spells that require even more mp to cast??? I'm very lucky to succeed pro-fire within 3 attempts. I will never be able to cast that

Kaedan wrote:As for failing earthquake spells, that's down to the fact you've only got 22int. To cast impressive magic one has to be clever.

Great..........., missing 1 or 2 int... another char with crappy stats
Oh well, at least i have a high constitution

Scorpion wrote:Great..........., missing 1 or 2 int... another char with crappy stats
Oh well, at least i have a high constitution

1 or 2 *ONE* or *TWO*!!!!

by your standards I'm missing about (spends 10 minutes working it out....) NINETEEN int

seriously though my mage is 21 int and he is always careful about what he fights and how, I guess he will have to take a little more care, thats all.

Kaedan wrote:Finally I'll just say in response to Jagg's comment about making things unfightable, that's intentional.
--Kaedan

*spits dummy*
Wah! Stopping us getting nice new toys to play with!
*throws teddy*
*sulks*


Oh actually, a sensible suggestion - any chance of making things last longer before breaking then? As they'll be harder to get in the first place. Go on, please...

Well I've played my mage and I'm more conservative than most and if anything I'm happier. The crits are fantastic and I can normally get a bind and two casts in against the stuff I go for. Occasionally hit but that always did happen to me.

I might have to have a proper mage session soon!

I also agreed that lowering the mages power a bit was a good decission. Just by comparing Meglaz and Ghandi old style you could see a great difference. Now it is less.

Ghandi wrote:I couldn't even fight creatures of my own lvl, but now will have even more problems with lvl 17/16 creatures.

Just to give you a bit of information so you can calibrate your abilities, Ghandi, even under the old rules Jagg could not fight creatures of his own level alone. He can't cast bind enough times to allow him to bludgeon something to death (unless he was lucky with a critical), and circling is a non-starter unless you have superiority.

Those of level 17 still give him a hard time, because he still can't circle them reliably enough, and it only takes a bit of a statistical bad patch before he will be having to retire for a rest before another go.

Level 16 is a getting easier, say nine times out of ten victory at least. The statistical fluke necessary for him to be in danger is substantially improbable (although it does happen sometimes).

Not that this is a bad thing! Creatures of similar level to your own should be tough. The ease with which mages used to dispatch them even when they were several levels below them was an imbalance which seems to have been addressed.

I wonder - have the levelling tasks for mages been playtested? (I would expect that they have). That is an area where a weakening of their powers might have painful consequences - if they were a challenge before, they might be REALLY tough now.

The level quests for mages shouldn't cause any problems since they are not harder than the quests for other classes. Probably the only one which truly amounts to a challenge is a creature which cannot be bound - in which case the addition of critical offensive spells should potentially make it a little easier. Mages quest targets are always very near their level, so bind on such creatures should be fine anyway.

Level 7 and 8 mages wanting to take out Dr'Tel may have a little more difficulty. This can only be regarded as a fair thing, bringing their power more into line with the other classes.